Labour leader and Prime Minister Chris Hipkins was frank that New Zealand’s traditional security arrangements” put New Zealand “at odds with China on a pretty regular basis”.

Hipkins said stressed that New Zealand had a strong trade relationship with China and the best way to approach the complicated relationship was to “be predictable”.

He made the remarks to The Rest is Politics, a popular British political podcast hosted by Alastair Campbell, known for the variety of communications roles he held under former UK Labour leader and Prime Minister Tony Blair, and former MP Rory Stewart, who served as a Cabinet Minister under former Prime Minister Theresa May. Stewart later stood for the leadership of the Conservative Party, and therefore the role of Prime Minister, when May resigned, but lost to Boris Johnson.

Hipkins spoke candidly of a moment just prior to becoming Prime Minister: As former Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern left Government House, having formerly resigned as Prime Minister, and he pulled up outside, ready to assume the role, she texted him to say: “Tag, you’re it.”

 “If I was to describe the difference between being a Cabinet minister and being Prime Minister, I would say they are entirely different jobs,” Hipkins said.

He said a former Prime Minister had told him that the job is “50 per cent ceremonial, and 50 per cent making the decisions that no one is willing to make”.

“Almost every decision that lands on your desk - it’s got there because no one else could or is willing to make that decision. Naturally, it’s all the tough stuff that lands on the Prime Minister’s desk,” Hipkins said.

Hipkins recorded the podcast a few weeks ago, at what was roughly the beginning of the election campaign proper.

He confessed to being a Brexit sceptic, noting that he was “somewhat sceptical that Brexit is going to deliver anything near the benefits that were promised by those who campaigned for it. My guess it is is going to prove a costly exercise for the British people”.

His critique of pro-Brexit campaigners is somewhat milder than other political leaders. Prior to the Brexit vote, Ardern, then just a second-term MP, tweeted that Boris Johnson was known as the “gaffe man”. In 2019, then-National leader Simon Bridges described Johnson as having a “buffoon-like quality” on the eve of Johnson becoming Prime Minister.

Former UK cabinet minister Rory Stewart. Photo / Rory Stewart

Hipkins was very critical of New Zealand’s three-year term, which he said was “absolutely crazy”. He said the problems with a three-year term were accentuated by the fact that MMP coalition governments tended to be slower to make decisions.

“I think you get bad governance decisions from a three-year term. I think four years would be about right,” he said.

Stewart, who worked as part of the reconstruction effort in Iraq after the 2003 invasion, revealed that he had a good relationship with another New Zealand MP, National’s Mark Mitchell, who was a security contractor in Iraq at that time.

“I served in Iraq with a man called Mark Mitchell ... who I came to like very much,” Stewart said.

Stewart said Mitchell was “extremely courageous”.

“We were under attack in our compound in Iraq - he was up on a roof commanding the teams with machine guns holding back Sadrist insurgents. He was a very, very decent man,” Stewart said.

The Herald contacted Mitchell about Stewart’s remarks. He said he still keeps in touch with Stewart and the pair exchange text messages every six months or so.

Mitchell described Stewart as “a good friend”.

“I think it was a big loss for the UK when they picked Boris Johnson rather than Rory,” he said.

Mitchell said the pair served in Iraq for “a couple of years”.

“The guy is enormously courageous. He is very, very fair,” Mitchell said.

“He was tough and he was strong in terms of what needed to be done and how to do it,” he said.

Mitchell had vivid recollections of the siege described by Stewart.

“That was a tough time. We were under siege. Other government outposts were being overrun,” Mitchell said.

“It was a siege. We were in a very very small compound. We were heavily outnumbered. We were receiving heavy indirect fire with mortar rounds and heavy direct fire with AK-47s,” he said.

Mitchell said it was about five days before air support was able to break the siege. .

“Rory had overall command and control he made everyone feel confident that we were going to get through it,” he said.

He said it was “impossible” to know the number of casualties.